《终极自由之路》27.世俗与灵性

星空

翻译：小粒子儿大天体

What is the difference between the divine and the worldly, the spiritual and the material? Is there a difference? Is there a difference between being spiritual and being in the world? There is a tendency for us to separate the two. That is a gross error. There is no difference between the spiritual and the material when we look at it from the viewpoint of Truth.
出世和入世有何区别？灵性和物质有何区别？它们真的有区别吗？我们往往分裂地看待二者。但那是个严重的错误。当我们从真相的角度看，就会发现灵性和物质并无区别。

The difference is in our outlook, in the way we see the world. It's the way you look at it, that's all. You may look at it from the ego point of view, or you may look at it from the Self. A realized person sees the world only as an out-projection of himself; therefore, it really is his creation. And as an out-projection, it's like a cinema screen out there with this whole universe projected on it and which, at will, could be changed or withdrawn. To the one who doesnt see the Truth, this cinema, this moving picture, seems not self-created and as such, one makes himself subject to it and becomes a slave to it.
区别仅在于我们看待世界的角度。你可以从小我的角度看，也可以从真我的角度看。开悟的人认为世界仅仅是他自己的向外投射，所以世界是他的造物。就像电影屏幕一样，整个宇宙都投射在上面，内容可随意改变。但对尚未发现真相的人而言，屏幕上的电影好像不是自己创造的，就这一点而论，他让自己成为荧屏电影的奴隶，受其控制。

A Master is very much in the world. A Master has His feet firmly planted on the earth, but He sees the basic substance just behind the apparent world as His very own Self. And when He does that, everything is in harmony, everything is perfect. It is not a matter of separating one from the other, or having one or the other, it's merely seeing the truth of the world. When one does, one is realized. When one doesn't, one is forever shadowboxing with his self-created world of opposition. Both see the world. The Master sees the Truth just behind it and there's nothing but harmony! The unrealized one sees separation and opposition and theres much disharmony! The unrealized person sees it as a thing running him; the realized person sees it as his own projection and therefore he can run it and it cannot run him. Being a Master over it, He resides ever the same, in peace and tranquility, and lives in complete ease all the time.
大师是非常入世的。虽然祂的双脚紧紧扎根于地球，但是祂把表象世界背后的本质看成是祂自己的真我。当祂那么做时，一切都处在完美和谐中。问题不在于把物质和灵性分开，或是只能拥有二者其一，问题在于是否能够看清世界的真相。如果你能做到，那么你就是开悟的。如果不能，那么你会永远都在与世界这个假想敌作战。大师看到的是世界背后的真相，因此只有和谐存在！没开悟的人看到的是分裂和敌对，因此只有不和谐存在！没开悟的人以为自己受到世界的控制，开悟的人则把世界看成是他自己的投射，因此他能操控世界，而世界却无法操控他。成为世界的主人，他虽依然居住于这世界，但却永远处在深沉的宁静以及完全的自在中。

We must, in our everyday lives, be in that state of tranquility, and until we can be in that state while in the details of daily living, - we haven't reached the top.
如果我们在日常生活的琐碎中，依然能够安住于宁静与祥和，那么我们就是到达了最高境界。

So there are no two categories, the world and spirit; its all one and the same. Its just a matter of the way we look at it. We should strive to get to the place where no one and no thing can perturb us. When you get to that state, you are at the top. You are in the world and nothing and no one can disturb you in the slightest. Develop this. Make this a practice. Make this your way of life. Do not react to people; do not become angry, jealous, hateful and so forth. Remain ever the same, ever the same; no matter what happens, no matter what goes on, you really are ever the same, serene and poised.
所以，并不存在世界与灵性之分，它们完全是一回事。问题只在于我们的角度。我们应该努力到达不被任何人或事所搅扰的境界。当你到达那个境界时，你就处在最顶端。你虽依然身处于世，但没有什么能够激起你内在的涟漪。发展这个能力，把它作为一项练习，让它成为你的生活方式。不要对人起反应，不要愤怒、嫉妒、怨恨等等。不管发生什么，都临危不乱，始终平静。

Q: But. Lester:, when I look at the world. I see differentiation?
问：但是，当我看这世界时，我看到的是分别

Lester: Any time we see any difference, or a difference between the spiritual and the worldly, its because we don't have enough understanding of the spiritual as yet. We are separating. The highest state is when we are in the world and in spirit at one and the same time and there is no difference. When we're there, we don't see it as world and spirit. We see it as one and the same thing; we see a oneness; we see it all as our very own Self; or, If we want, we see the whole world as being within us, as a dream is within us in sleep. No matter what happens in the dream, we remain the same. We see absolutely no difference in anything; there's a singular oneness throughout everything. Nothing changes. Ever-the- same is our feeling.
答：每次我们看到任何分别，或者灵性和世俗的分别，都是因为我们对灵性没有足够的了解，我们是分裂的。最高境界是我们同时处在世界和灵性中，两者没有任何分别。我们把它们当作一回事，将它们视为“一”，视为我们自己的真我，或者如果我们愿意的话，可以将整个世界看成是在我们之内，看成是一场梦境。在这梦中无论发生什么，我们始终如一。我们看不到任何差别，只有单一的“一”贯穿一切。没有什么会改变。我们的感觉始终如一。

This can be used as a yardstick to know how far we are on the path. Is everything ever the same? Do things really not change? It is a little shocking when we start examining it from this point of view. How far am I on the path toward seeing the sameness, the Oneness, the no-otherness, the nothing but God, God in all, the God in everyone?
这可以作为一个标尺，来衡量我们在觉醒之路上走了多远。一切是否始终如一？真的不会有变化吗？当我们从这个角度开始检验时，会有点骇人。我们的目标是看清同一性，了知“一”的本质，了知只有上帝存在，一切都是上帝，所有人都是上帝。在这条路上，我们走了有多远呢？

When you accomplish that non - duality, you lose the feeling of separation, of I. If you want to recognize the "apparent" others, you use the word "We." But more than that, you would rather talk about yourself in third person. That is the feeling a Master has. And He talks that way. Certain Masters will not speak of Themselves by name; theyll speak of Themselves in the third person as Their disciples do. For instance, if everyone called me what Ken jokingly calls me, I would talk about Father Divine. Instead of saying "I," "me," or "Lester:," I would talk about him (pointing to himself). Father Divine. That's just the way you feel when you're in the state when all is one and all is the same. You don't identify yourself with just your body.
当你不再有二元性，“我”的分离感就会消失。到达那个境界时，如果你想认出“表面”的他人，你会使用“我们”这个词。或者你宁愿用第三人称来指代自己，那是大师会有的感觉，他会用那种方式来交谈。有些大师就是这么做的，他们不会用自己的名字称呼自己。比如，如果每个人都以Ken对我的戏称来称呼我，我会说“圣父”。我不说“我”或“莱斯特”，而是说“他”（指莱斯特自己），说“圣父”。当你到达万象合一的境界时，你会有那种感觉。你不再认为自己只是这具身体。

I've been emphasizing this point because quite a few were asking questions and talking about the two, the world and spirit, not knowing that in Truth they are one.
我一直强调这一点，是因为有很多人都问到这个问题，他们认为世俗和灵性是不同的，不知道在实相中两者是一回事。

Q: There is no difference?
问：两者没有差别？

Lester: Right. It's one and the same, when you see it aright. If you see it through illusion, if you see it wrongly, you'll see separation; you'll see the differentiation that this is spiritual and that is worldly; that this is divine and that is mundane.
答：对。当你正确地看待它们时，它们是一，是同一。但若你通过幻觉来看待它们，错误地看待它们时，你会看到分裂，看到灵性和世俗的差别，以为一个是神圣的，一个是平凡的。

Q: The "Me's" are our ego?
问：“很多我”是我们的小我？

Lester: Yes. The "Me's" are a condescension on the part of a Master in order to communicate with the apparent egos. A Master sees nothing but Masters; specks of infinite light, all looking alike, - blazing effervescent radiant Beings, points of Beingness all being One. This is the way a Master really sees everyone; He doesn't see people the way we see them.
答：是的。“很多我”是大师为了与表面的小我沟通而作的屈尊之举。大师只会看到大师，构成无限之光的无数光点，一切都无差别，一切都是炽热、闪亮的存在，一切存在的点都合在一起。大师就是这么看待每个人，与我们看待他人的方式不同。

Q: Does He see them as different shades or all one shade?
问：祂把人们看成是不同的阴影还是只是一个阴影？

Lester: Identical points of light, of one ocean of light, brilliant effervescent, emanating, with center everywhere and circumference nowhere. Are you trying to imagine what it I s like?
答：光之海洋中完全相同的光点，处处都是光的中心，光芒四射。你能否想象出那样的画面呢？

Q: Well, I had an experience of seeing something like that and it's a light like a bright sun.
问：我有过那样的体验，那光就像明亮的太阳光。

Lester: Yes, a bright blazing sun. Masters can see nothing but a Master in us, and at the same time, They can go through the pretense of seeing it otherwise by saying. "Harry. Yes, you do have problems." or, "Harry, you do have a body and you do live in a house," but as They say it, to Them, it's like a dream voice talking, or apparently talking, and it's all an apparency. It's a pretense, - They're actually pretending as Their view of the omnipresent, infinite One never changes.
答：是的，明亮而炽热的太阳。大师只能看到我们之内的大师，同时，他们可以假装看不到，他们会说：“哈里，你的确有问题”，或者“哈里，你是有一具身体，你是住在一所房子里”。但当他们这么说时，对他们而言就像梦呓，或者表面上是在说话，但这一切都只是表象，是假装。祂们假装祂们全在、无限的“一”的视野从未改变。

Q: They are pretending a duality, then, actually, where we're more or less living it?
问：祂们假装二元性，就是我们所在的二元世界？

Lester: Yes. However, we're pretending it too, but we don't know that we're pretending it. A Master pretends it and He knows that he's pretending it. We are ignorant of the fact of our pretense.
答：是的。但我们也是在假装，只是我们不知道我们在假装。大师假装，但祂知道祂在假装。我们却对自己的假装一无所知。

Q: In that way He's coming down to our level?
问：祂以那种方式和我们处在同一水平？

Lester: Yes. And He does it only to help us.
答：是。祂那么做只是为了帮我们。

Q: Well, why can't I as a human being say, "I will play a game of baseball"? When I say I'm a baseball player I can make myself subject to all the rules. But I don't have to play baseball. So why can't God say, "I will play the game of being Bob? And then He puts Himself subject to the limitations of Bob as He defines it, as when I play baseball, I make myself subject to the rules. Now, why can't God, to entertain Himself, be a Bob? Or be a Lester:? And be limited in a sense - the thing is, if I play baseball, limit myself to all the rules of being a baseball player. Well then, I will play baseball and have a good time and be Bob.
问：作为人类，我为什么不能说“我会去玩棒球游戏”？当我说我是个棒球手，我会让自己去遵从相关规则，但我可以选择玩或不玩。所以为什么上帝不能说“我会去玩‘变成鲍勃’的游戏”？那样祂就要受制于鲍勃的限制，就像我玩棒球时要受制于游戏规则一样。所以，为什么上帝不能把自己变成鲍勃自娱自乐一下？或者变成莱斯特？总之就是让自己被限制一下。问题是，如果我玩棒球，就要遵守棒球的游戏规则。我会好好享受玩棒球，也会好好享受做鲍勃。

Lester: God can, - and does, but never forgets He is God! Do you never forget?
答：上帝能这么做，也是在这么做，但是祂从不会忘记自己是上帝。你从没忘记过吗？

Q: Therefore, I am God who is playing Bob and for the moment I forgot?
问：所以，我忘了我是玩鲍勃游戏的上帝？

Lester: You only are if you know that, not if you state it. Stating it, lip- service, doesn't equate with knowing that.
答：只有你知道时，你才是，而不是你这么说时。说只是嘴上功夫，并不等同于你知道。

Q: I agree absolutely.
问：完全同意

Lester: So theoretically you are right. Now, the important thing is to carry it out practically, -to know your Beingness in God while you are playing the game, to know that you are God and that you are pretending to be limited as a body and so forth.
答：所以理论上你是对的。重要的是要付诸实践，也就是在你玩游戏时，知道你是上帝的存在，知道你只是假装自己是有限的身体等等。

Q: And any time I don It want to, I don't have to play, and I don't have to take that particular step of being limited because I am the creator of the game; I make the rules and I don't have to play anymore than I have to playa baseball game. I can quit just like that (finger snap)!
问：每当我不想玩时，我就不必玩，不必非得变得有限制，因为我是游戏的创造者，我制定了相关规则，可以随时喊停（打了一个响指）！

Lester: That's the way it is. All right now, when you dont really know that you are God, you can discover it by tracing the source of I. If we trace the source of the ego- I, we'll discover it is the infinite Being. If you'll trace the source of the mind you'll discover the same thing. The infinite Being is putting this pretense of limitation, ego and mind, over Itself so that we don't see this statement of Truth: that this world is only God playing a game of apparent limitation. The way to discover it is to seek the source of the ego- I, and if we stay with it we'll discover that it is really the Infinite I that I am.
答：就是那样。当你不知道你是上帝时，你可以通过追踪“我”的源头来发现。如果我们追踪小我的源头，也就是“我”的源头，我们会发现那是无限的存在。如果你追踪头脑的源头，也会有同样的结果。无限存在假装成限制、小我和头脑，所以我们才看不到真相——这个世界只是上帝玩的一个表面限制的游戏。如何发现它呢？就是去追踪小我的源头，最终我们会发现那是我一直所是的无限的“我”。

Q: Well according to your book and let me use Bob's words, if I play the game of ball looking up to God, then I don't have it made. If I do anything at all looking out from God, then I know who I am. But if I play the game looking up to God, from the outside, then I dont know.
问：根据你书中所说，我借用下鲍勃的“棒球”说法，如果我玩棒球时眼睛看向上帝，我就无法知道自己是玩棒球的上帝。如果我通过上帝的眼睛向外看，那么我就会知道我是谁。但如果我是看向上帝，也就是从外面往内看，那么我就不会知道。

Lester: You are very right Frank. Translating that into Christ, if I look up to Christ, or believe in Christ, that isn't it; I have to look out through the eyes of a Christ; I have to believe as Christ believed; I have to be as a Christ. I'm just taking what Frank said and putting it in a biblical way.
答：弗兰克，你说得很对。把它转译成基督的话，那就是如果我看向基督，或者相信基督，我就无法知道。我必须通过基督的双眼向外看，必须相信基督所相信的，必须作为一个基督存在。这就是弗兰克所表达的，只是把它用《圣经》的话来作阐述。

Q: It's in your book. I read it in the Gita this morning and also in your book, so you get your stuff from a good source.
问：你的书里也有写到。今天早上我在《薄伽梵歌》里也读到了同样的东西，所以你所说的有个很好的出处。

Lester: In the beginning of the book there is a disclaimer stating that the knowledge is not mine. It is Truth; I can't make it; I can't unmake it; I can recognize it or not recognize it. That's the choice that we have, -to recognize the Truth or not to. We can't make it; we can't do anything to it; but we recognize it.
答：在书的开头，我就有个免责声明，就是那些知识不是我的。那是真理，我无法制造或不制造真理，我可以认出或无法认出它。这就是我们拥有的选择，认出真理或无法认出。我们不能制造它，不能对它做任何事，但我们可以认出它。

Q: All the books that I read say the same thing; Patanjali says it, Yogananda says it, the Gita says it and the Vedas say it; they all say it.
问：我读过的所有书都在说同一个东西。帕坦伽利这么说，尤迦南达这么说，《薄伽梵歌》这么说，《吠陀经》也这么说。

Lester: And they said it a thousand years ago, a million years ago, a billion years ago, a billion, billion years ago, and in the future they'll say the same thing. Because Truth is that which never changes; It is changeless. The basic Truth will never change in all eternity and you can know this for the entire universe. If somebody comes from a planet billions and billions of light-years away and tells you otherwise, no matter how high he looks, acts and talks, if it doesn't fit in with what you know of the changeless Truth, you can be sure he's wrong, even though he's acting and looking like a god.
答：一千年前他们就这么说过，一百万年前也是，十亿年前也是，无数年前也是，未来他们说的也会是同一个东西。因为真理从不改变，永不改变，整个宇宙都是这样。如果有个来自无数光年以外的存在告诉你相反的东西，不管他的言谈举止有多像上帝，如果他所说的跟你所知的永不改变的真理相悖，你可以确定他是错的。

Do you know what I'm saying? Even if an angel tells you something, if it's not in accordance with Truth, reject it, because there are so many high appearing beings that look like gods that you can be very easily fooled,-until you know the Truth. Truth is the same throughout from infinity to infinity.
你明白我的意思吗？哪怕是天使告诉你，但只要他说的违背真理，那就拒绝相信，因为你很容易被很多看起来像上帝的高灵所愚弄，除非你知道真理。真理不管放在哪里，都是一样的。真理贯穿全宇宙。

Q: We're trying to get ahead as quickly as we can and we listen and read and we think the right thing to do is to be on the path, but I go to church and I see a priest, a monk, up there and he's been struggling on the path for twenty years. How can I make it quickly when I see in front of me someone who has been on the path much longer and he's struggling?
问：我们正尽快地往前走，我们听到、读到并且思考的都是觉醒之路才是终极之道，但是我去教堂时看到一个神父，一个修道士，他在这条路上奋斗了二十年。我怎样才能走得更快呢？

Lester: All right, look at it this way. If you want to go from Los Angeles to New York City and the direct route is not known to you, you start probing; you might go up to Washington State first, then cut eastward, then come down to Nevada, then go up to Montana. However, if you know the direct route, you take the direct way and get there much sooner. Probing may take you a whole lifetime. Going directly you could do it in three or four days time.
答：不妨试着这么看：如果你想要从洛杉矶到纽约城，你并不知道最短线路，于是你开始探索。你可能先走华盛顿州，然后往东至内华达，接着去到蒙大拿。但如果你知道最直接的线路，你会走那条线路，那样你就更快到达纽约。探索可能花费你一生的时间，但走直接线路可能只需三四天（从洛杉矶到纽约）。

Q: Dont say another word to me, because I got the answer.
问：别跟我说那些，我知道怎么走最快（从洛杉矶到纽约）。

Lester: All right. Now the priest or monk doesn't see the direct route and he's probing and he's learning bit by bit. He'll get to New York eventually if he keeps trying and wandering all over the United States.
答：好吧。那个神父或修道士并没有看到直接线路，他在探索、学习。如果他一直这么做，哪怕走遍整个美国，最终会到达纽约的。

Q: But doesn't each of us have different abilities? One person gets over something very easily, very quickly, and someone else has a problem that's deep-seated and it's been with him a long while which takes a very active struggle to get over?
问：我们每个人不都拥有不同的能力吗？有人在某事上得心应手，有人却困难重重。

Lester: Yes. However, quickness of realization is determined by the intensity of the desire for it. How far have we gone in our desire for it? If we've gone very far, the realizations come fast and easily.
答：是这样没错。但是，开悟所需的时间取决于对其渴望的强烈程度。带着这份渴望，我们走了多远呢？如果我们已经走了很远，开悟就会更快更容易地到来。

Q: And we stick by them then?
问：也就是要忠实于这条道路？

Lester: Yes. They really stick with you. I say to you: I'm not teaching you. You're getting something you've known; you are doing it; you're just re - remembering things you've always known. I can't give you this knowledge; no one can. I just suggest and you open yourself up to that which you already know, have always known and always will know, subconsciously.
答：是的。它们会跟着你。我跟你说：我不是在教你，因为你在获取的是你早就知道的，你只是在重新忆起你所知道的。我无法给你这方面的知识，没有人能给你。我只是给你建议，而你也在敞开自己，向你潜意识中已经知道的，并且总会知道的。

Q: In other words, you just read a page of your true Self.
问：换句话说就是，你只是读到了你真我的那一页。

Q: Well, it's Self-realization, - actually.
问：那实际上是自我觉醒。

Lester: Yes, and this is also true: If you haven't grown much, or as much as someone else, you can go way beyond that one if you have a very strong desire for it. Only a very strong desire for full realization will give it to you this lifetime. Anyone who has only a desire for Truth will get full realization quickly. You can override your past conditioning when you want to. How long should it take an infinite, omniscient Being to know that he is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent? How long should it take him to do that?
答：对，是这样的没错。如果你成长得比较慢，或者没某人快，你可以试着超过那个人。如果你对开悟有非常强烈的渴望，那么你可以在此生就获得它。只对真相有欲望的人完全开悟会非常快。如果你想要，你就可以超越你过去的习气。对于一个无限且全知的存在来说，想要知道自己是全知、全能、全在的，能花多长时间呢？

Q: One realization.
问：一次开悟？

Lester: When man so wills, he's immediately set free  totally!
答：如果有人如此渴望开悟，他就能立即获得完全的解脱！

So, really what this growing turns out to be is that we play with the path as were doing now, getting more and more realizations and then one day we say, Oh, my gosh, look at this tremendous thing I have always been! What silly playing around Ive been doing! The heck with it! And boom! Its finished!
所以，这种方式的成长就是在这条路上继续玩下去，获得越来越多的开悟经验，直到某天我们说：“哦天啊，看看我都做了什么！我怎么一直在玩这么白痴的游戏！去他妈的！老子不玩了！”

Q: And at that moment your looking out from God!
问：在那一刻，你通过上帝的眼睛向外看！

Lester: Yes, youre looking out from God and seeing the whole thing, seeing the silly dream you have been going through of playing the game of limitation, and you just drop it, lock, stock and barrel.
答：没错，你通过上帝的眼睛向外看，看到了全部的东西，看到了你做的可笑的梦，你所玩的限制游戏，然后你就释放了它，完完全全、彻头彻尾地。